Government Healthcare

[steveyk]

The current price for the inhaler I use in the states?
1 x Seretide (Advair) 125 - 25 mcg Inhaler US $90.00
http://www.inhousedrugstore.com/asth...gy/advair.html

what I pay? about 8 pounds now isn't it the prescription charge?

Apparently not bullshit at all, and yes I do think you are very pro private sector, you wouldn't be saying half the stuff you are saying if you were not.
The NHS does cost a lot of money? Of course! (pensions also cost a huge amount of money) It is a a health service after all it's not some small thing. Can the the private sector run the Health Service, sure! but then greed would come into play. If you think competitiveness would lower the prices you would be sorely wrong. Just look at the price of simple over the counter medicine costs 10 years ago. The government had to force them to drop the price as they were in the 1000's % profit margin. This was caused by them "price fixing". If greed was not a factor that would never have happened.

If people's lives were not at risk then I would probably agree with privatization of the NHS by the way but the health service does concern people's lives.

The majority are being served with a NHS. If we had private health care the amount of people who could afford it would only be provided. Poor people would get nothing.

And by the way, if I am not mistaken there is still private health care in this country so it's not like you don't have a choice. You might not have a choice on where your tax and NI goes but you do have a choice on what to spend your money on.

I just think you are not weighing in all factors when thinking about privatizing the health service. I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to pay for the medicine I currently use under private health care. At least if American prices are anything to go by...

[God]

"what I pay? about 8 pounds now isn't it the prescription charge?"

To cite a company that covers said costs so it would essentially be the same as the 8 pound charge is Bupa. Lots of private health companies cover it.

"The majority are being served with a NHS. If we had private health care the amount of people who could afford it would only be provided. Poor people would get nothing."

Read my last post again


"The NHS does cost a lot of money? Of course! (pensions also cost a huge amount of money) It is a a health service after all it's not some small thing. Can the the private sector run the Health Service, sure! but then greed would come into play"

Only if Monopalization or cartels happen will self interest become an issue. For the record I believe in Private pensions as well and Indeed Cartels are inherently bound to fail. Furthermore what happened with the case you were talking about was oligoply under the circumstances of imperfect competition.
You name me one monopaly or cartel that has stayed stable.

I r to get into Behavioural Economics firstly, you have the prisioners dilema when a cartel is made. The entry of non-cartel firms into the industry increases market supply and puts downward pressure on the cartel price.Over-production and excess supply by cartel members breaks the price fixing. all of these would break cartels.


"And by the way, if I am not mistaken there is still private health care in this country so it's not like you don't have a choice. You might not have a choice on where your tax and NI goes but you do have a choice on what to spend your money on."

Believe it or not the money that you earn should be your money, Now tax is needed to a degree. But wealth redistribution? no. The fact is the NHS removes choice I can't say to whoever is in charge "Can I please stop paying for the NHS and the go to private healthcare"

"I just think you are not weighing in all factors when thinking about privatizing the health service."

In short terms NO U. In Long terms, you're thinking of the short term what you don't realise is someone (you) is having to pay for inefficient beauracracy and a smaller less vibrant private sector. These inefficienies affect us all in the longer term and indeed are affecting us now MRSA for example under private enterprise would not be as widespread in hospitals. You would get a better quality. You cannot give me one way that hospitals would not be improved in quality.

[steveyk]

Your understanding of economics is nothing in comparison the moral issue that you haven't even mentioned... not once. And there lies your problem.

The NHS was made to provide health care to all citizens, and it does. Also the more uncommon the health issue the more expensive it is to treat under private health care, this is also not the case with the NHS. MRSA is being dealt with, if you didn't hear about it they are already splitting up the hospitals to keep major surgery and minor surgery apart to stop the spread of MRSA with the introduction of treatment centers (not a permanent solution but a start). And privatization will not cure MRSA. The US has the MRSA problem as well and that is a privatized healthcare system. Proof enough that it is having the same issues.
http://www.medi-smart.com/nursing-ar...care-news/mrsa

As for the cover for medicines, you don't have to be a genius to know that cover goes up the more you use your insurance to get medicines, so no it doesn't cost the same at all.

I'm just glad that the majority of the public and politicians disagree with you on this matter.

Tony Blair attempted to privatize the NHS and look at how many people went mental about it. It was a good idea to privatize the rail system but when people's lives are at stake there has to be more accountability and you can only get that with the NHS not a privatized health service.

[God]

"The NHS was made to provide health care to all citizens, and it does."

Private Healthcare insurance also does this.It just means that one way you're being FORCED to pay for something and the other way you get an option without having excessive tax. to use an example Bupa is better than the NHS.But you have to pay for it as well as your taxes. All you're doing is allowing the rich to get a better quality of service than the poor.

In my world people would be able to afford Bupa because they have more money because around 69% the money they would normally pay to tax would be allowed back to them. I'm saying that yes everyone can afford it. Now I shall concede that this is not a perfect system.But it's a blindsight better than a public ownership.

This way of thinking slightly angers me irl. Along with wealth distribution.




"And privatization will not cure MRSA. The US has the MRSA problem as well and that is a privatized healthcare system. Proof enough that it is having the same issues."

Never said privatization would cure MRSA I said it would of been less wide spread. Indeed if you look at the percentage difference between England and the US of deaths caused by MRSA you will find that England IS WAY AHEAD.
to prove the point in the link you gave me 2004 deaths by MRSA in the US was 11,668.and in the UK it was 1,100
Now we time 1,100 by 51 to account for population differences 56 100

"Tony Blair attempted to privatize the NHS and look at how many people went mental about it."

Argumentum ad populum


"As for the cover for medicines, you don't have to be a genius to know that cover goes up the more you use your insurance to get medicines, so no it doesn't cost the same at all."

If you're talking in terms of Long term medicines such as using inhalers then no. If you're talking about a man who has suffered from heart attack but to be honest You're already paying for that in our current circumstance you're paying for the man with cancer who is dying,you're paying for a man who needs a heart bypass (although has to wait 4 weeks on a waiting list Lolololololol) Prices are cheaper if you healthy and around the same as they are now *COUGH* 69% ish of your income*COUGH*. Amusingly, Private healthcare is healthier for you. You're more likely to eat healthier if you know it decreases Insurance costs.Less likely to smoke etc etc.



From here On out it's mainly going to differences in political idealogy. I focus on the individual you focus on society helping each other out through the means of wealth redistribution (which I disagree with morally economically and socially, hell look at Thatcherite Britian remember Harry Enfield's Loadsofmoney).

Fin

[steveyk]

How you think the poor will have health insurance insurance is a joke. They won't have a choice they simply couldn't afford it.

60 million UK residents, 300 million US residents. i think your math is way off.

Once again it's a case of agree to disagree, we are as stubborn as each other.

[God]

Indeed my math was way off.

But I can say that 9% deaths in the UK have been directly due to HAI's whilst in America only 2.5% of deaths HAI's

as for saying whether poor people can afford them. I call bullshit on saying they can't it's just people seem to value material goods over finicianal and medical security.

464.04 pounds is how much Private Healthcare in England costs per year.

For the sake of argument lets say you lose 50% of your money due to tax on minimium wage.

which should be around 6,000 pounds. Then you gain back 4140 on the amount of tax you would gain from the NHS being privitised and you have 10,140 pounds.

This leaves you with 9 675.94 pounds.

Lets imply you're in a very bad situation where you are the only income earner in a family with 2 children you'd pay about 2,000 pounds a year on food.



That's 7,675.94 remaining

Now lets pay the bills.
Elec: £25 per month (for the sake of argument) 300 pounds
Gas: £40 per month (you lose less in the summer but for the sake of argument)480
BT Broadband and Land line: £32 per month (Option 3 deal,oh yeahh)384


6511 pounds remaining. Now lets say you have a mortgage to stay above current mortgage interest rates (which is currently 0.5%) you would have to pay... lets say you're a safe person so you pay 2% of your mortgage per year. For the sake of argument lets say your mortgage is 150,000(this is not unreasonable hell i'd say it's over the average)

You stay above the percentage of pay back meaning you don't end up paying more in the future. But I know you're going to say Interest rates fluctuate so Lets say you the current mortgage interest rate is 3% (an average interest rate) You're clever so you pay 4% per annum

6511-4600=1911

Which leaves you 1911 pounds to spend on Luxuries per year.

pounds per month to do whatever the fuck you want with.

Now, being poor sucks I will agree. Most people would prefer to have more than 159.25 pounds per month as spending money. Indeed, this gives people more of an incentive to work harder. And with further destruction of the welfare system more money comes to You, Mr poor man, Mr wealthy man. Everyone.


This has been fairly overexaggerated as well, I've took the worst conditions a person could be in and I didn't give the person any current Government benifits that they're also paying for. The family in this case is stretched tight. But man... You try and do it without the 69% they get back...


Don't lecture me on Moral duties when in your world a man who is rich gets better healthcare because he can afford to pay tax and private healthcare.
In your world a man (a poor man) cannot afford eat, supply for his children. Your world disgriminates against the poor, the unskilled etc.

[steveyk]

I don't wanna sound like a bastard, but tl:dr, I just woke up and cannot focus on the wall of text. I am sure your right argument over lol!

[Zamirok]

Wow, you guys can type a lot...Well, I have free health care...so